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Lo scritto che segue è di Maurice Cranston (nella foto) e mette in scena un dialogo immaginario fra Marx e Bakunin, come avrebbe potuto benissimo avvenire un giorno, a Londra. O altrove.

Dialogo immaginario tra Marx e Bakunin
di MAURICE CRANSTON

BAKUNIN - Lo sfruttamento regna a Londra dappertutto. In questa grande citta, piena zeppa di miseria, squallore, vicoli scuri e sordidi, nessuno si azzarda ad innalzare una barricata. No, Marx, questo non è posto per un socialista.
MARX - Pero è quasi l'unico posto dove siamo tollerati. I have been here for fifteen years.
Bakunin - a pity that we did not meet at Paddington Green. I lived there for more than fifteen months. Looking at your business card yesterday, it occurred to me that our paths have not crossed from the early days in Paris.
MARX - I had to leave Paris in 1845.
Bakunin - Already, before the lifting of Dresden, when he fell - to put it this way - in enemy hands. They kept me in jail for ten years. I then deported to Siberia. As you know, I managed to escape and get to London. Now I dare to live in Italy. I will return to Florence next week.
MARX - Very well, you can finally move.
Bakunin - I move ever. I am not a revolutionary discreet as you. The crowns of Europe banno always forced me to travel.
MARX - The crowns of Europe have expelled me from different countries. And poverty has forced me to leave several homes.
Bakunin - Ah, the poverty! I ride always penniless, asking for loans to friends. I must have lived with borrowed money long periods of my life except in jail. And I have fifty years. But I never think about money. E 'by bourgeois thinking about the money.
MARX - You're lucky. You do not have family to support.
Bakunin - You know that I joined with a woman in Poland. However, it is certain that we have not had children. Still the? I, yes. A Russian can not live without tea.
MARX - You're many Russians, Bakunin, to be exact many Russian nobles. It must be difficult, given your temperament, understanding the proletariat.
Bakunin - And what about yourself, Marx? Not a son of a wealthy bourgeois? Your wife is not a von Westphalen, daughter of Baron von Westphalen and sister of the interior minister of Prussia? You have to admit that all this is of dubious origin plebeian.
MARX - Socialism as well as intellectual needs of the working class. And then I met a lot of persecution and starvation in cold and sleepless nights of exile.
Bakunin - The night in prison longer and cold. I'm so used to the hunger that now hardly feel it.
MARX - I think the worst things is to see their children wear to the lack of money to feed them properly.
Bakunin - I think so, be sentenced to death is not as bad as you might think. In a way I took it well, as something ridiculous
MARX - Since I'm in London I lived in furnished apartments, cheap and nasty. I had to borrow money and buy on credit, the clothes I had to commit to pay the rent. My children have had to learn to avoid telling them that the creditors are not at home. All of us, my wife, my children and an old maid, living in two rooms piled up and these do not have a mobile decent and clean. I try to work on the same table where my wife sews and my children play, spending hours without light or eat because it lacks the money to buy it. My wife often feels hurt and my children, but I do not dare to call a doctor because I can not pay for visits and medicines of the recipes.
Bakunin - But, my dear Marx, Engels even your co-worker? I have always believed ...
Marx - Engels is very, very generous, but he was not always possible to help me, Believe me, I had all kinds of calamities, the worst I've had eight years ago when my son Edgar died at the age of six years . Francis Bacon said that people have many important contacts with the nature and the world, there are many things that worry you, who has a habit of passing over these losses. I, Bakunin, I am not part of this important people. The death of my son prostrate so deeply that now I feel her loss so painful as the day of the disaster.
Bakunin - Where is the money you need, Alexander Herzen has in abundance. I appeal to him many times. I do not see why it would not help.
MARX - Herzen is a bourgeois reformer of the surface. I do not have time to deal with certain people.
Bakunin - If it were not for Herzen I could not translate your Manifesto of the Communist Party in Russia, and this two years ago.
MARX - A translation of late, however I thank you. If you plan to translate hours Poverty of Philosophy ...
Bakunin - No, dear Marx, I do not put this text on the side of your most successful work. And it's too hard PJProudhon.
MARX - Proudhon is not socialist. It 'an ignorant, a typical lower-class autodidact, a parvenu in the economy that makes a big show of quality that does not have. His is really arrogant pseudo-scientific quackery intolerant.
Bakunin - I admit that Proudhon and limited, but is a hundred times more revolutionary than any doctrinaire socialists and bourgeois. It has the advantage of declaring an atheist. It is primarily in the struggle for freedom against the authority, for socialism, which must be completely free from any kind of government regulation. Proudhon was an anarchist recognized.
MARX - In other words, his ideas inolto similar to yours.
Bakunin - I was influenced by him, but I Proudhon does not go far enough. He does not understand that, under certain circumstances, the destruction is in itself a form of creation. I am a revolutionary active. Proudhon was a socialist theorist like you.
MARX - I do not understand what you mean by "socialist theory", Bakunin, but I dare call myself a socialist as active as you.
Bakunin - Marx My dear, do not allude to anything disrespectful. Instead, remember that you were expelled from the University of Bonn for a duel with pistols made. So I recognize that you could be a soldier of the revolution when, sometimes, could tear at the British Museum Library and take to the barricades. When you call socialist theorist to say that you are a theorist of socialism as Proudhon. I could never write a long philosophical treatise of the importance of yours and that of Proudhon. I do not exceed the limits of the pamphlet.
MARX - You're an educated man. You could not write for the people as it does Proudhon.
Bakunin - All right. It 's true that Proudhon and the son of a farmer and self-taught, and true that I am the son of a large landowner, and I guess what you're thinking: I have studied Hegelian philosophy at the University of Berlin.
MARX - You would not have had better preparation. And, from a socialist of your culture, you might expect something more than a gun to the barricades and set fire to the work of Dresden.
Bakunin - I overestimating Marx, not personally incendiai Opera Dresden in Dresden and also worked as an anarchist. As you recall, the facts in question are linked to the Saxon Diet, when it voted for a federal constitution for Germany. Ii King of Saxony would not hear of unification and dissolved the Diet. The people were outraged, and in May of that year began to raise barricades in streets of Dresden. The leaders of the parliament, which were obviously bourgeois liberal ii occupied city hall and proclaimed a Provisional Government.
MARX - Certainly, I think, this case could not excite a man like you, so contrary to every form of government.
Bakunin - The people had taken up arms against the king. It was just relieved. This was something. Since I happened to be in Dresden, I went to the service of revolution. After all, I know military tactics, the liberal bourgeoisie Saxon had no knowledge of this technique. With a pair of Polish officers I formed the General Staff of the insurgents.
MARX - Soldiers of fortune, no? However you were not lucky.
Bakunin - No, it did not last more than a few days. The king got reinforcements from Prussia and had to evacuate from Dresden. As you say some of our men burnt the Opera. I wanted to blow up City Hall ii with us inside, but the Poles in the meantime had disappeared and the last of the Saxon liberals wanted government to carry ii Chemnitz. I could not desert and took me away like a lamb to the slaughter. In Chemnitz ii mayor surprised us in his sleep.
MARX - And so, therefore, Bakunin, you were imprisoned for the cause Germanic and trying to set up by force a Liberal government. The thing is fun.
Bakunin - I risked being shot for this. But the experience has made me another man. I certainly learned a lot from you, Marx, disagree with your opinions in 1848. I must admit that you were ahead of me. I admit that the flames of the European revolutionary movement of the head and gave me that I was attracted to the negative side rather than the positive.
MARX - I applaud the fact that you have effectively taken advantage of years of forced reflection.
Bakunin - There is one point on which I was right and you, Marx, were wrong. As Slavic wanted liberation from the yoke of Germanic Slavic race, and I wanted it to happen thanks to a revolution, that is, through the destruction of the existing schemes in Russia, Austria, Prussia, Turkey and through the reorganization of the people from the bottom up, in completa libertà.
MARX - Il che significa che non hai ancora abbandonato ii tuo vecchio panslavismo. Sei lo stesso vecchio patriota russo di Parigi.
BAKUNIN - Che cosa intendi tu per "patriota russo"? Sii franco Marx. Credi ancora che io sia una specie di agente del governo russo?
MARX - Non l'ho mai creduto ed uno dei motivi per cui sono venuto aggi all'appuntamento è quello di chiarire completamente questo sfortunato sospetto.
BAKUNIN - Però questa voce fu pubblicata, per la prima volta, sul Neue RIeinische Zeitung, quando tu ne eri ii direttore.
MARX - Questo l'ho già chiarito da tempo. La voce ci arrivò dal nostro corrispondente a Parigi al quale George Sand said that you were a Russian spy. Dopa published the correction of George Sand and also your full. We could not do more. Also I have personally apologized.
Bakunin - But you were not able to silence the voice, even after I was transferred from a prison in Austria to a Russian, after they have been for years and years in solitary confinement after having been deported to Siberia. Marx You've never been in prison. You do not know what it means to be buried alive, having to confess to themselves all day and night: "I am a slave, are annihilated." Feeling full of devotion and heroism in the cause of freedom and see all your enthusiasm ii broken by four bare walls. And this non è la cosa peggiore; veramente la cosa peggiore è uscire dalla galera ed essere perseguitato dall'infame calunnia di essere agente dello stesso tiranno che ti ha condannato.
MARX - Lascia perdere, ormai nessuno si ricorda più di questa faccenda.
BAKUNIN - Ma via, caro Marx, la voce torna a circolare fresca come una rosa, qui nella stessa Londra. E' stata stampata in uno di quei fogli pubblicati da Denis Urquhart, un inglese amico vostro, mi dispiace doverlo dire.
MARX - Urquhart è un fissato, adora sistematicamente tutto quello che è turco e odia tutto ciò che è russo. Non è molto assennato.
BAKUNIN - Ma tu scrivi sulla sua stampa e parli dalla sua tribuna, mio caro Marx.
MARX - Sembra un po' eccentrico. E poiche condivide i miei punti di vista su Palmerston - o almeno lo crede -, mi offre la possibilità di pubblicare i miei lavori. Si tratta di propaganda. E paga qualcosa, come fa il New York Times. Ma stai pur certo, Bakunin, che la ricomparsa di questa stupida voce mi ha schifato più che a te. Lascia che ti assicuri, una volta per tutte, che non ho mai avuto niente a che fare con questa disgustosa faccenda. Non finirò mai di deplorarlo.
BAKUNIN - Sinceramente accetto le tue scuse, Marx.
MARX - C'e qualcosa però che onestamente devo dirti. Considero ii tuo panslavismo completamente contrario agli interessi del socialismo ed esso puo condurre ad una sinistra crescita del potere russo in Europe.
Bakunin - Ii Pan-Slavism - Pan-Slavism that is democratic II - is part of the great European movement for liberation.
MARX - Absurd, absurd.
Bakunin - Show me this nonsense, my dear Marx. Justify your claim.
MARX - Ii was the crowning moment of Pan-Slavism in the eighth and ninth centuries, when the South Slavs remained in occupation throughout Hungary, Austria and threatened Byzantium. If they could not defend himself then to maintain its independence, when their two enemies - the Germans and the Hungarians-were fighting among themselves, how could they do that now, after a thousand years of oppression and lack of national consciousness? Almost all European countries have the minority communities disintegrated, a vestige of the past, overwhelmed by the nations that propel the historical development. You know, of course, that these minorities Hegel called "ethnic trash."
Bakunin -. In other words, these people despise and do not consider them worthy of the right to live.
MARX - I'm not interested in the language of rights. The existence of these people is a provocation against the history. For this reason they are in any case reactionaries. Think of the Gaels of Scotland, support for the Stuarts from 1640 to 1745; think of Brittany in France, in favor of the Bourbons from 1792 to 1800. 0 Basques in Spain, and also looks at Austria in 1848. Who made the revolution then? The Germans and Magyars; e chi procurò le armi che permisero agli austriaci reazionari di sconfiggere la rivoluzione? Gli slavi. Cli slavi attaccarono gli italiani, entrarono in tromba a Vienna e restaurarono la monarchia asburgica. Gli slavi mantennero al potere gli Asburgo.
BAKUNIN - Sì, pero erano slavi dell'esercito dell'imperatore. Sai benissimo che il movimento panslavista e democratico e fermamente contrario agli Asburgo, ai Romanoff e agli Hoenzollern.
MARX - Ah, li ho letti i vostri manifesti, Bakunin! so quello che vorreste ottenere.
BAKUNIN - Allora saprai ciò per cui lavoro: l'abolizione di tutte le frontiere artificiali in Europa e la creazione di limiti tracciati dalla volontà sovrana dei popoli stessi.
MARX - This sounds very good. But simply ignore the real obstacles that stand on the road to each of these schemes: the different levels of civilization attained by the different peoples of Europe.
Bakunin - I have always taken account of the difficulties, Marx. And I said that the only way to overcome them is a federal policy related to the concept. The slave is not the enemy of German or Magyar democratic. We offer them fraternal alliance based on freedom, brotherhood and equality.
MARX - These are beautiful words. Faced with the facts have no meaning. And the facts are as simple as brutal. With the exception of your own Russia, the Poles, and perhaps the Slavs of Turkey, most of the Slavs have no future. Because these other Slavs do not qualify for an independent historical, geographical, economic, political and industrial. Missing, in short, of civilization.
Bakunin - And the Germans have it? Is this civilization? Believe that their great civilization will entitle the Germans to dominate Europe and to commit crimes against others?
MARX - What crimes? More, consult the history, the more I am convinced that the only crime committed by the Germans and Magyars against the Slavs was to avoid that convert into Turkish.
Bakunin - Well, dear Marx, I have always said Germany's what Voltaire said of God: "If there were to be invented." There is nothing more effective than hatred for Germany to keep alive the Pan-Slavism.
MARX - This proves once again that your unhappy panslavism is reactionary. Teach people the hatred against the Germans instead of ii to their enemy, the bourgeoisie.
Bakunin - The two go hand in hand. This is my evolution after the crude nationalism of my youth. Today, I maintain that freedom is a lie for the great maggiaranza of the people if they are deprived of education, leisure and bread.
MARX - As you know, Bakunin, consider you a friend and do not hesitate to call yourself a socialist, even if ...
Bakunin - Even if ... what?
MARX - I mean, you rifiuti decisamente quello che io chiamo politica.
BAKUNIN - Certo, a me non interessano il Parlamento, i partiti, le assemblee costituenti e le istituzioni rappresentative. L'umanità ha bisogno di qualcosa di più elevato: un nuovo mondo senza leggi né Stato.
MARX - L'anarchia?
BAKUNIN - Si, l'anarchia. Dobbiamo sovvertire il modo di far politica e l'ordine morale del giorno d'oggi. Occorre cambiarlo dal basso verso l'alto. Voler cambiare solamente le istituzioni esistenti è vera utopia.
MARX - Io non voglio modificarle. Io dico semplicemente che i lavoratori dovrebbero impossessarsene.
BAKUNIN - Dovrebbero essere totalmente abolite.Lo Stato corrompe sia i nostri istinti e la nostra will, that our intelligence. Tl fundamental principle of true socialism is the subversion of society.
MARX - For me it's a curious definition of socialism.
Bakunin - I'm not interested in definitions, Marx. In this we are completely different. I do not agree with your idea that any prefabricated system can save the world. I do not have a system. I am a researcher. I believe in instinct as much as in thought.
MARX - Without a policy will never be a socialist.
Bakunin - I do not miss. And if it means having things point by point, I'll tell you what my program: first, eliminate man-made laws.
MARX - But you do not you can delete the laws. All 1'universo is governed by laws.
Bakunin - Of course we can not eliminate the natural laws. I agree with you that people can expand their own freedom by extending the knowledge of natural laws that govern the universe. Man can not escape the nature and it would be absurd to ask. But this is not what I propose. I say we should abolish the laws made by man, man-made laws. In other words: the laws and legal policies.
MARX - You can not seriously claim that the company does not impose laws on its members.
Bakunin - The company does not need to impose laws. Man is by nature a social being. Outside the company can be a beast or a saint. The laws of capitalist society make it competitive, possessive, leading to the clash between the men. Freedom will only be possible when all men are equal. That's why there can be no freedom without socialism.
MARX - On this I totally agree with you.
Bakunin - You say you agree, Marx. But when I say that there can be no freedom without socialism also want to point out that socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
MARX - I have never advocated socialism without freedom.
Bakunin - Yes, Marx's friend, yes. You defend the dictatorship of the proletariat.
MARX - The dictatorship of the proletariat is also part of freedom, the liberation process.
Bakunin - I, when I speak of freedom, I think the only freedom worthy of the name, what is the full development potential of all natural, economic and moral latent in man, a freedom that must not admit any restrictions except those laid down by the laws of nature. I defend a 1ibertà that is not the freedom of the majority, but is instead the freedom of all. I want that freedom will triumph over brute force and the principle of authority.
MARX - Listening to your words, Bakunin, but I do not know the meaning you attribute to them. One thing is certain, that never succeed in forcing the advent of socialism, or do something decisive in politics, if not based on the principle of authority.
Bakunin - The principle of socialism Delia needs discipline, but not the authority. Not the discipline imposed from outside, but a heartfelt and thoughtful discipline that man imposes on himself and does not contradict the principle of freedom.
MARX - Apparently you have not learned much from your experiences of rebellion, Bakunin. These movements could not grow without a principle of authority. It takes even the captains in the army of anarchism.
Bakunin - It 's clear that at the time of military action, in full battle roles are distributed according to the attitudes of everyone, assessed and determined by the movement in all its components. Some men manage and command, others do. But no function is fixed and petrified. There is no hierarchical order: the leader of today must become the subject of tomorrow. No one stands above the others, and if he must do so for a short period, just before easing as the waves of the sea, at the right level of equality.
MARX - Well, Bakunin: If you admit that this direction and this command are required during the battle, then perhaps we will agree on other things. I have always maintained that the dictatorship of the proletariat will only be necessary during the early stages of socialism. As soon as the classless society will be more mature, the state will no longer be necessary. To borrow a phrase from my colleague Engels: "The State will be extinguished."
Bakunin - I do not see signs of this weakening of the State in the Communist Manifesto and Engels that you have written. This is an ingenious pamphlet, and I would not have published if it were not for this admiration that inspires me. But the fact remains that the ten points of the socialist program that you plotted in those pages, no less than nine advocating a strengthening of the rule: the state should own all means of production, trade and credit control, to impose forced labor and collect taxes, to monopolize the land, direct the transport and communications, including regular schools and universities.
MARX - If you do not like this program, it means you do not like socialism.
Bakunin - But this is not socialism, Marx! This is the most complete form of statism, the state of German bloated, inseparable from the guillotine. Socialism means control of industry and agriculture by the workers themselves.
MARX - A socialist state is a proletarian state. Both have to directly control things.
Bakunin - This is the typical illusion of the bourgeois democratic theory according to which the people can control the state. In practice it is the state that controls the people, and more strong is the rule, the stronger is its domain. Look what is happening in Germany. As the state grows, the corruption that accompanies each key policy takes hold of people, even the most honored. And even more: The monopoly capitalist state grows at the same speed. MARX - The growth of monopoly capitalism ii prepares ground for Socialism. The reason why Russia is so far away from socialism and just beginning to emerge from feudalism.
Bakunin - The Russian people is closer to socialism than you think, my dear Marx. In Russia the peasants have their own revolutionary tradition and have a great role to play in the liberation of mankind. La rivoluzione è profondamente radicata nell'anima del popolo. Nel XVII secobo i contadini si ribellarono nel Sud-Est. E nel XVIII secolo Pugaciov diresse una rivolta contadina nella valle del Volga che durò due anni. I russi non fuggono la violenza. Essi sanno che ii frutto vivo del progresso umano è macchiato di sangue. E nemmeno fuggono il fuoco. L'incendio di Mosca che segnò l'inizio del disastro di Napoleone, fu una cosa genuinamente russa. Sono i roghi sui quali la razza umana deve purgarsi dalle scorie della schiavitù.
MARX - Questo suona in modo molto drammatico, amico mio; ma concretamente la questione consiste nel fatto che il socialismo dipende dall'emergere di un proletariato con coscienza di classe, E questo ce lo possiamo expect only from highly industrialized countries like England, Germany and France. The farmers are the least organized and least prepared among all social classes in the revolution. The farmers are behind the lunperproletariat cities. They are simple barbarians or troglodytes.
Bakunin - This demonstrates our profound difference, Marx. For me the flower of the proletariat is not, as you believe, in the upper, skilled workers in the factories that are in any case, semiborghesi or those who want to become. I met these people in the labor movement in Switzerland and I can assure you that are full of all the social prejudices, aspirations and demands of all the typical middle-class. Technicians Socialists are the least among the workers. In my opinion, Marx, the flower of the proletariat is the great mass, the millions of destitute, unfortunate and illiterate you are named with contempt lumpenproletariat.
MARX - Obviously, you did not go very deeply into the concept of the proletariat. T1 proletariat, not the poor. There has always been poor people. Ii proletariat is something new in history. It is neither poverty nor disgrace, to make men proletarians. And 'their indignation against the bourgeoisie, their challenges, their courage, their resolution to put an end to their condition. The proletaniato is created only when this outrage, this class-consciousness adds to poverty. The proletariat is the class with revolutionary aims, the class that points to the destruction of all classes, the class can not emancipate itself without emancipating ii mankind as a whole.
Bakunin - But if your class does not eliminate socialism, Marx! Rather it will create two: one of the leaders and that of direct. There must be a government with far more power than those known so far. And the people will be destined to be governed. On the one hand, there will be the intelligentsia, the most despotic, arrogant and stubborn class that will never exist and that will command in the name of knowledge; other lata you will simply ignorant masses who must obey.
MARX - Legislators amrinistratori and the socialist state will be the people's representatives.
Bakunin - Here's another liberal illusion: in particular, that the government stemming from a popular election consultaziane step represents the will of the people. Even Rousseau notes the profound error of this idea. Profode the intentions of the government elites are increasingly at odds with the instinctive purpose of the common man. Rarely can adapt to avoid an attitude from owner to look at society as a housekeeper from the top of lora opinions.
MARX - Democracy fails because political institutions are always manipulated by the financial power of the bourgeoisie.
Bakunin - The self-styled socialist democracy vitiated by other pressures. A parliament made up exclusively of workers, the workers themselves, the same socialists believe today, would be transformed overnight into an aristocratic parliament. This has always happened. Put the extremists in the state chairs and transforms them into conservatives.
MARX - That you're right.
Bakunin - The main reason is that the democratic state is a living contradiction. The state authority is by its nature, domain, and thus inequality. By definition, democracy is equality. So, Democracy and the rule can not coexist. Proudhon was never so clear that when he said that universal suffrage is controrivoluzionarlo.
MARX - Una verità aritmetica esemplare, prodotto tipico della mentalità giornalistica di Proudhon. Certo è che i lavoratori sono spesso troppo oppressi dalla miseria e si lasciano influenzare con troppa facilità dalla propaganda della borghesia per poter usare il voto in modo giusto. Ma ii suffragio universale può essere sfruttato con finalità socialiste. Possiamo entrare nella politica ed aiutare a fare ciò che è democratico di nome e di fatto. Non possiamo raggiungere tutti i nostri obbiettivi con mezzi parlamentari. Però possiamo raggiungere gran parte di essi.
BAKUNIN - Nessuno Stato, nenmeno la repubblica del rosso più vivo, può dare al popolo quello di cui ha bisogno: la libertà. Tutti gli Stati, ii socialist state including your dear Marx, is based on force.
MARX - That there is an alternative to force?
Bakunin - Education, enlightenment.
MARX - The people lack education.
Bakunin - can be educated.
MARX - Who will help if not the state?
Bakunin - The company must educate themselves. Disgaziatamente all governments of the world The people have left in a state of profound ignorance that would be necessary to make the schools not only for children but also for adults. But these schools must be free from any type of authority. There must be schools in the conventional sense of the word, should be popular academies, in which students with some experience could also teach their teachers in some fields and not just learn. In this way develop a kind of intellectual fraternity between them.
MARX - finally admits two modes of teaching. I do not think that teaching should be a big problem once standing socialist society.
Bakunin - Yes, the first question is economic empowerment, and the rest will come later.
MARX - Nothing will come by themselves, unless they do not want the socialist state. History is here to prove it. The more educated people of Europe today - the French and Germans - owe their education to a solid state system in the field of public education. In countries where the state is not concerned with school education, a people is hopelessly illiterate.
Bakunin - Here in England the great colleges and universities are beyond the control of the state.
MARX - but are dominated by the Anglican Church, which is even worse and that in any case and the state.
Bakunin - The colleges of Oxford and Cambridge are operated by companies independent and traditional.
MARX - Do you know a little English life, Bakunin. Both colleges had to be radically reformed by laws passed by parliament. The state had to intervene to save Daila complete intellectual decadence. And they are far behind them with the University confrontiaino 'German.
Bakunin - Ma la loro esistenza dimostra che gli studenti possono controllare 1 propri collegi. E non c'è nemmeno alcun motivo per supporre che i lavoratori non saprebbero amministrare le proprie fattorie e fabbriche con lo stesso procedimento.
MARX - Verrà ii giorno, non ce' dubbio, che succederà in quel modo, ma intanto, uno stato operaio deve sostituire i propietari borghesi.
BAKUNIN - Questa e la grande differenza tra noi due, Marx. Tu credi che bisogna organizzare i lavoratori per la conquista dello Stato; io voglio organizzarli per distruggerlo, o se preferisci un termine più raffinato, per liquidare lo Stato. Tu vuoi utilizzare le istituzioni politiche; io voglio che il popolo Si organizzi in federazioni liberamente e spontaneamente.
MARX - What does federate spontaneously?
Bakunin - The workers organize themselves. Producer groups will be organized based on mutual aid to districts, districts and these in turn allied themselves with larger units. All power will come from the base.
MARX - These projects are fully chimeric. They are a copy of phalansteries and a twelfth edition of the New Jerusalem proposed by utopian idealists. They are nonsense, but unfortunately not harmless, because it introduces a false conception of socialism that can take the place of the vera.E because it produces a difference in the attention of men than the immediate conflict, its effect is conservative and reactionary.
Bakunin - If a thing can not blame me, Marx, is to divert people's attention from the immediate conflict. Also, I think like you that there are only two parties in the world: the party of revolution and reaction. The anti-war Socialists, with their model of cooperative societies and their countries belong to the party of reaction. Unfortunately ii revolutionary party is already divided into two parts: the defenders of the socialist state, of which you are a representative and libertarian socialists, among whom I recognize. Your village has many followers, of course, in Germany, and here in England. But the socialists in Italy and Spain are all libertarians. Well, the problem is questo: quale tendenza prevarrà nel movimento operaio internazionale.
MARX - La tendenza genuinamente socialista, e non l'ala anarchica.
BAKUNIN - Il vostro lo chiamate socialismo genuino perché vi ingannate sulla natura della dittatura popolare. Non vi rendete conto del pericolo di arivare ad una nuova schiavitù seguendo ii modello di altri Stati.
MARX - Tu presupponi che siccome lo Stato è sempre stato strumento della classe che opprime, continuerà ad esserlo sempre. Non riesci ad immaginare la possibilità di un diverso tipo di Stato?
BAKUNIN - Riesco ad immaginarne uno così diverso da non poter rispondere a questo nome. C'è posto per questo nelle linee proposte da Proudhon: un semplice office, a central bank in the service of society.
MARX - should ultimately be the case in a socialist society. There will come a day when The Government of the people will give way to the administration of things. But before the State destroys itself, must be strengthened.
Bakunin - This is not only paradoxical, but it is also inconsistent.
MARX - What can you do if it is! You know me as Hegel. You know that the logic of history is the logic of contradiction. What we say, we deny it. Bakunin - The argument is good as Hegelian, but is bad in that town. You'll never destroy it was enlarged. I am your disciple, Marx. As time goes by and more are sure of your convictions to pave the way for the general path of economic revolution, and to invite others to follow in your footsteps. But I never understood or accepted any of your proposals authoritarian.
MARX - If you are an anarchist, you can not be my disciple. But perhaps we should broadly identify your mistake. First, are you referring to the principle of authority as if it's wrong at any time and place. This is a superficial point of view. We live in an era industrial. Modern factories and workshops, in which hundreds of workers control complicated machines have replaced the modest tools of individual craftsmen. Even agriculture is being dominated by the machine. Action Combined replace individual action indipendente.L 'combined action involves organization, authorities and organizations involved. Ii individual craftsman in the world could be master of himself. But in the modern world there must be direction and subordination. If you intend to resist any type of authority, you are condemned to live in the past.
Bakunin - I do not object to any kind of authority, Marx. In the field of footwear, I entrust the authority of the shoemaker in the field of construction and architect. As for the health authority of doctors. But I can not let the shoemaker, the architect or doctor to impose their authority over me. I accept their advice amicably; I respect their experience and knowledge, but I reserve the right to criticize and censure. I'm happy to see not a single authority, nor consulted and compare their different points of view. Not consider any infallible. I recognize that I can not know everything. No one can know everything. There is no reason why a man omniscient and universal. My reason forbids me to accept authority fixed, stable and universal.
MARX - But if you eliminate the authority from economic and political life, nothing can be achieved efficiently or in any way. For example, as the train might work if there was someone with the power to clear the lines, and if nobody decides what time the trains have to leave? None to avoid accidents, no one who has to take the cars?
Bakunin - The railroad may elect guardians and toll collectors and freely obey their instructions. As for those who must drive the machines and who should occupy the first-class carriages, this is an issue that every socialist should pursue. In my ii socialism could result in alternating work and enjoy all the comforts for a mutual agreement. But according to your type of socialism, Marx, I guess I see the firemen of the old locomotives load machines, and a new class of privileged passengers, directors of the socialist state, smoking a huge cigar in first class carriages.
MARX - Listen, Bakunin, I am no longer in love with you the state. Every socialist is in agreement that the political state will disappear as soon as ii triumph of socialism will have rendered useless. But you want the political state abruptly disappears, leaving the workers without any kind of direction, discipline and control responsapile. The crux of the matter and that you anarchists do not have any plan for the future ii.
Bakunin - Just because we can not predict exactly what the future holds, I trust, Marx, in the detailed schematics. When the selfish instincts gave way to brotherly instincts believe that the technical problems of production and distribution will be resolved by mutual agreement and goodwill of people themselves.
MARX - Your questions, Bakunin, are partly psychological and moral. They are also intellectuals. Mistakenly believe that the State has created the Capital or the capitalists have accumulated the capital thanks to the state. This accentuates the simplicity of your point of view .. You think that it is enough to remove the obstacle of the State so that capitalism will disappear by itself. The truth is very different: we eliminate ii capital, we eliminate the concentration of means of production in few hands and the State will soon cease to be a bad thing.
Bakunin - The evil lies in the true nature of the state. All States are the negation of liberty.
MARX - By adopting this attitude toward emotional and extremist the state, greatly undermine the cause of workers. Use your influence, Bakunin, to encourage workers to voter abstention.
Bakunin - I advise the workers to do more than intervene in the elections. Urges them to fight.
MARX - leads them to fight in the uncertainty of victory, and this is another responsibility. I just said that your mistakes were essentially a moral one. One of them is missing calm. Do you like fighting on the barricades, even for a case in which you do not trust, because this satisfies your inveterate inclination violent action, for pure excitement. Slight the real political activity because it requires patience, order, reflection.
Bakunin - All my life I dedicate to the activity 'policy.
MARX - Dedicate your life to the political conspiracy, which is not the same thing.
Bakunin - Spending my whole life among the workers. Organization, propaganda, education.
MARX - Education for what?
Bakunin - For the revolution. Certainly I do not see that employees are wasting energy in the lora false so-called representative institutions of government. MARX - I can understand that these ideas have their followers in Italy and Spain, including lawyers, students and other intellectuals. But workers will not want to be convinced that the political affairs of their countries foreign to them. Telling workers who must refrain politics, and introducing them into the arms of the priests and of the bourgeois republicans.
Bakunin - Marx My dear, if you read my writings public, you know that constantly and passionately threw me against both. The Church and the Republicans. Your own views, compared to mine, are more moderate.
MARX - My dear friend, I did not doubt your sincere hatred for both of the priests and the Republicans, but do not understand that you can end up making their game.
Bakunin - You want to joke, my dear Marx.
MARX - No, I'm serious. First, examine your propaganda about freedom. You are more than clear in saying that the only freedom in which individual belief, and freedom. In fact, the same freedoms invoked by bourgeois theorists as Hobbes, Locke and Mill. When you think about freedom, you believe that nobody should be controlled by anyone. Conceive of each man separately, in possession of all his rights, threatened by social and collective institutions such as the rule. Never come to think, like any true socialist, humanity as a whole, or the man as a creature is inseparable from society.
Bakunin - Once again, proves not listening to me, you do not understand what I've heard.
MARX - Pretend to have you understand better than you understand yourself to be. Not conceiving the state as anything other than generating equipment of oppression, demonstrating la tua incapacità di concepire l'uomo altrimenti che come un'unità isolata, ognuno con la sua volonta personale, i suoi desideri ed i suoi interessi. Questo è quello che credono i teorici del pensiero liberale borghese. E voi anarchici avete la stessa concezione dell'essere umano nella società. Ii vostro anarchismo altro non è che un liberalismo portato all'estremo, ad un estremo isterico, aggiungerei. La vostra filosofia è essenzialmente egoista. Avete una concezione dell'io, e della libertà dell'io, imparentata alla metafisica del capitalismo.
BAKUNIN - Non m'interessa la metafisica.
MARX - E, tuttavia, l'anarchismo porta a conclusioni metafisiche, da qualunque lato lo prendi. Ed ha anche la stessa ethics, much like the Christian ethics: "Mutual support", I hear you repeat. Place in conventional Christian terms, it could be translated: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor", "sacrifice for others." However, the true precepts of socialism does not need because it does not recognize the isolation of the individual. In a socialist society the man and more alienated from his neighbor or himself.
Bakunin - As the state is the cause deli'estraneità, it is obvious that the remedy will be to delete it.
MARX - But we can not eliminate it until they change the conditions that make the state a necessary outgrowth society.
Bakunin - As soon as the workers gather the strength necessary to remove it, the state will no longer be necessary.
MARX - Admit that now is a necessity?
Bakunin - It 's necessary for a society based on private property. When private property has been distributed, when socialism has triumphed ... MARX - A social concern of the redistribution of property is a true model of vulgarity. I hope, Bakunin, you're not of those who think that socialism is to free individual redistribution.
Bakunin - This is, in fact, one of his goals.
MARX - My friend, the purpose of socialism are much more radical than that. His aim is to produce a complete transformation of human nature, a transformation of the self, the creation of a new man. The individual will linked to the company. Each shed their alienation. Ii say that your aim is freedom: Socialism will give us a freedom almost unknown in the past experience of mankind.
Bakunin - Make Life's too mysterious.
MARX - And you make something vulgar. Contemplating world ii, Bakunin, can you imagine that today some people to be free, and other oppressed
Bakunin - I do not imagine that. It 's the reality. The minority is free: the rich.
MARX - I must tell you that nobody is free in today's world. Even the middle class richer. Morally speaking, Capitalism, as man is a slave to the system as workers. This allows us to say, honoring the truth, that the emancipation of the proletariat is the emancipation of mankind.
Bakunin - But the main thing is still standing. The rich can do whatever he likes while the poor lack ii necessary.
MARX - But the choice of the rich is regulated and restricted by the bourgeois culture, the system that denies the will of everyone. In addition, the theory of freedom defined by the "do what you like" is very limited.
Bakunin - In any case, è meglio della teoria della libertà definita dal "fai quello che devi fare". E' quello che dicono i preti: la libertà è servire la Chiesa. 0 quello che dice Hegel: la libertà è obbedire allo Stato. Personalmente preferisco la nozione umana più piena secondo la quale la libertà significa:" Fai quello che vuoi".
MARX - Hai appena definito la libertà come realizzazione piena delle potenzialità umane; questo e molto vicino al socialismo. L'entità socialista sarà libera in quanto uomo trasformato.
BAKUNIN - Sì, ma se non è permesso all'uomo di svilupparsi da sé, non riuscirà ad esprimere il meglio che ha in sé. In terms
MARX bourgeois and liberal, Bakunin, you're betraying your liberal philosophy and bourgeois. In fact, this is not the case for what they say Adam Smith and his acolytes? Let alone the men, and each will give them the best. The man with his own economic incentive for self-perfection. What does the phrase "Laissez-faire ... Noue"
Bakunin - Then proceed to ignore The fact that liberals are based on private property and economic competence, while I maintain that everything must be put in common ...
MARX - But if you share the assumption that every man should have the right to freedom unlimited private, you come to the conclusion that there will always be someone who will want to steal something for the common good, claiming as his own. There can be no individual freedom without private property. What would you say to a man who claims the right to property ii? Rather than respond, what would you do in the absence of a state or of another instrument of social authority capable of controlling the recalcitrant and anti-social?
Bakunin - But you yourself have said that the new socialist man is a man, changed! He has abandoned its selfish and possessive unnatural impulses generated by bourgeois society.
MARX - My socialist man will have changed, Bakunin. But I do not recognize in any way your socialist man. You conceive of men as individui, ognuno col suo piccolo impero di diritti. Io penso all'umanita come ad un insieme. La libertà, come io la concepisco, è la liberazione del genere umano; non la libertà dell'individuo.
BAKUNIN - E' nuovamente ii punto di vista di Hegel sulla 1ibertà; l'idea secondo la quale agire liberamente è agire moralmente, e agire moralmente è agire in accordo con la ragion di Stato.
MARX - Hegel non ha sbagliato tutto. Solo un essere razionale può essere libero, perché solo un essere razionale può decidere di fronte ad un'alternativa. Un'opzione irrazionale non è libera decisione. Agire liberamente significa agire razionalmente. E agire razionalmente implica la conoscenza della necessità della natura e della Storia. Veramente non c'è antitesi tra necessità e libertà.
BAKUNIN - Non stiamo parlando di libero arbitrio, Marx. Stiamo parlando di libertà politica. Non c'è in questo nessuna difficoltà metafisica. La libertà politica dipende dal fatto di sopprimere l'oppressione politica. Non è necessario nessun tipo di iniziazione filosofica per parlarne. Un bambino di nove anni può osservare ii mondo e vedere chi sono gli oppressi e chi gli oppressori.
MARX - E un bambino di nove anni potrebbe supporre che la situazione avrebbe rimedio solo sopprimendo bruscamente lo Stato. E potrebbe anche diventare anarchico. La giovane età gli perdonerebbe la sua pazzia.
BAKUNIN - C'è la pazzia the philosopher, as is the foolishness of youth. All your freedom on abstruse reasoning can only lead where they arrived Rousseau and Hegel to believe that men can be forced to be free.
MARX - Indeed, we can compel people to be free in the sense that you can force them to act rationally. 0, however, to avoid acting irrationally.
Bakunin - a freedom that can be imposed to man is not worthy to be called freedom.
MARX - What counts is not actually men.
Bakunin - All right, then look at the reality. If you talk of requiring people to be free, you have to think of two types of people: those who force and those that are forced. And these are the two types of people who form the so-called classless society of socialism, authoritarian leaders and direct those who are at the top and those at the bottom.
MARX - It 's obvious that certain people should be superior to others. As I said before, a socialist society must essere'regolata, especially during its early stages. The alternative is the Tower of Babel, a world in which nobody knows what to do or what to expect, a world without order and without security, without trust in a fixed order. Anarchy means chaos, and chaos scares me. If the chaos attracts you, Bakunin, is because you are attracted by the enchantment of the bohemian life. After the stiffness of your young life, within a family, and emphasized to military schools, it is understood that the bohemian clutter attracts you. But, if so and you'll realize it really is a beautiful tribute to the bohemian bourgeois ethos, despite passing and outrageous on purpose.
Bakunin - You talk, Marx, of "vulgar socialism," but you have yourself a vulgar notion of the meaning of anarchism '. To the untrained minds the word "anarchy" means chaos and disorder. But an educated man must know that the word "anarchy" is a phonetic translation from greek which simply means the absence of government. E 'pure superstition to believe that the absence government means disorder and chaos. The nations of Europe today are not the order in which The Government weighs more heavily on the citizen, but rather those in which the pressure has reached the minimum level. I can not understand what you say of bohemians. The truth is that the disorder does not attract me at all.
MARX - You speak with vehemence of blood and fire and destruction.
Bakunin - It 's just zeal for the fight. Perhaps you are more impatient as regards the advent of the revolution, but I can assure you that we as anarchists wish you the social order.
MARX - this desire is pointless, because you can not find it out of the socialist state. Your revolution take blood, fire, destruction, yes, but not much more.
Bakunin - And your rivoluziome, Marx, we will bring something much worse: slavery.
MARX - Well, my friend, I guess it's a good thing to have been both persecuted by the bourgeoisie, if not, if we continued to chat, we could stop both being Socialists.
Bakunin - I'm going to try the other hot water. Ii the has cooled.

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